I'll start by saying I'm overall happy with Willie. I feel that the players like him and that goes a long way will team moral.

However, he's made a few bad moves in his short career. I wanted to create a thread like this long ago, but last night pushed me over the edge. I'd like to hear other fan's opinions on some of his questionable managerial moves. I'll start by giving 3 examples:

May 19 - Yanks win 5-4, 11-innings
Pedro pitches a gem, Mets up 4-0 heading into the 9th. I don't mind Wagner coming in even though it's a non-save situation. However, Wagner couldn't throw a strike. He walked 3, hit another batter and gave up 2 hits & 4 runs. Willie left Wagner in WAY too long and the Mets lose in extra innings.

June 4 - Giants win 7-6, 12-innings
Trachsel pitches 7 innings and gives up 1 run. Mets up 3-1 heading into the 8th. I have no problems with Sanchez being brought in, since that's his inning. What I couldn't stand, was that Sanchez just didn't have it that night. Sometimes pitchers have it, other times they don't. It was obvious that Sanchez didn't have it on this night, yet, Willie left him in way too long. Sanchez gives up 3 runs (2 earned) in 1/3 of an inning and we lose in extra innings.

July 2 - Yanks win 16-7
Soler looked like absolute crap from the get go. Constantly falling behind hitters, couldn't locate his fastball or his curve and had an absolute pathetic strike to ball ratio. He was melting down out there faster than frosty in the greenhouse. In the 3rd inning, the Yanks were putting runners on base very easily and Willie wouldn't even get a pitcher warming in the pen. I don't want to hear about this "we need Oliver for Monday." The Mets are playing their worst baseball of the year against a big rival. Win today! A win would have been great. Instead, Willie leaves Soler out there to dry and then brings in Health Bell of all pitchers after the damage was done. This was probably the worst managing I've seen from Willie. He did not care to win this game. Look at Torre...he pulled Wright at the perfect time to keep his squad in the game.

I also do not think "20/20 hindsight" applies for any of these examples. In each and every one, I was yelling at the TV "pull the pitcher, pull the pitcher" before the other team got the big hit (I also said this in the Red Sox game when Soler came out to pitch the 5th...instead Willie leaves him in, the Sox hit 2 more HRs off him for 3 runs, basically putting the Mets out of that game).

Again, I'll repeat, I'm happy overall with Willie. But to me, it's obvious that he leaves struggling pitchers in WAY too long and he's done it too many times. This was also a problem with Bobby Valentine.

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LET'S GO METS!!!

Everyone is open to criticism - and Willie threw the game away last night by not pulling Solar earlier. Solar looked lost out there. Gotta play for today's win and not worry about saving Oliver for a win tomorrow...

I agree, you focus on the win today. That's how we built the divison lead. I believe the two prior starts didn't really tax the bullpen. He should have yanked Soler when he couldn't throw a strike.

wow...the 2nd guessing is amazing...IMO Willie is doing a fantastic job...we're frigggin 11 games in front by July 4th...oh and we won the game on 5/19, the game you are referring to is 5/20 against the yanks.

What the hell do some of you want...162-0??...we're gonna lose 40-45% of our games in a great season...but let me guess...all of a sudden the few "mistakes" he makes now he will compound and make in every post season game...forget about all the great decisions he's made....unbelievable

Willie does a great job managing players but a below average job managing games. I don't like the fact that through half a season we have not seen one suicide squeeze play, for instance. The opposing teams no longer need to guess in that situation, and have no need to waste a pitchout.
I do think that on at least two of the above examples he went too long with the pitchers, I do think the bullpen gets overworked. I think Heilman and possibly even Oliver should have gotten chances to be in the rotation at least at somepoint, and there are occasions where he seems to fall asleep at the wheel. I think last night he could have brought Oliver in and we could have brought Maine up to start today. Also if he was saving Oliver for tomorrow, why did he have him warm up at one point. Finally, how did we wind up using our two best pitchers (of late) to pitch the last three innings of a blow out? I will say this, most, definetely not all, but most of my problems with Willie are how he handles the pitching staff. You think that the experienced Peterson, would be in his ear, and maybe these are Peterson's decisions, maybe this is just a case of too many cooks, but it would be nice if something was done.



Oh yeah here is a great Conspiracy theory, maybe Willie left Soler in, because he wanted the Yankees to win.

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Last year is over, this year is not. VENT

It's the old "54/54/54" Theory I have long espoused--Every team wins 54 games, ever team loses 54. It's the other 54 that determine who wins.

Willie still hasn'r proven himself as an in-game manager to my satisfaction. But he didn't cost the team the game last night. People are screaming he should have gotten Soler out before he gave up 8 runs? The bullpen gave up 8 as well.

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"I’ve got to tell you, you can say a lot of things about the 2010 New York Mets, but you don’t ever say we don’t play hard. I mean, look at Angel Pagan’s uniform and Jose Reyes after a 13–inning heartbreaker last night, coming off a 2–9 road trip. We don’t give up, and we’re not going to give up… These guys don’t give up and it’s an honor to be on the team.”--RA Dickey

Thanks for the correction on the date, but I'm not 2nd guessing anything. I'll repeat:

"All us a sudden?" No, I'm giving examples from as far back as May. Don't over do it...we know we're not going 162-0.

This thread says "Willie Randolph," so feel free to give examples of his great decisions. I'll probably agree with you.

But it seems to me that his bad examples have cost us games. If this stuff happens in the post season, we're done. Just like Bobby left Leiter in too long in the 2000 World Series and Kenny Rodgers in the playoffs against the Braves.

I gave 3 (4 actually) examples off the top of my head. There are more. Another one I can think of is when Willie allowed Julio to close a game earlier this year. That move actually worked and Julio got the save (I can't remember the date). But it was interesting as Julio put a couple runners on base to make it stressful. Fortunately for the Mets, they won. But if Julio had blown that, Willie would have heard about it.

Also, our 11 game lead is partly because we are playing well and partly because our division sucks. So I'm content with the situation, but it doesn't take away from the fact that our team is struggling.

I don't mind "good losses" (see, game 3 of the Red Sox game). It's the bad losses that hurt. And Willie gave us one yesterday.

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LET'S GO METS!!!

I think Willie is a good players manager, but to Phil's point, I still think he can improve the "in-game strategy" portion of his job.

That's exactly why I couldn't believe Oliver wasn't brought in the game in place of Bell. Chalk up 2 or 4 of those runs to Nady, too.

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LET'S GO METS!!!

Just out of curiosity--we bring in Oliver; who starts tonight?

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"I’ve got to tell you, you can say a lot of things about the 2010 New York Mets, but you don’t ever say we don’t play hard. I mean, look at Angel Pagan’s uniform and Jose Reyes after a 13–inning heartbreaker last night, coming off a 2–9 road trip. We don’t give up, and we’re not going to give up… These guys don’t give up and it’s an honor to be on the team.”--RA Dickey

Mayne

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Last year is over, this year is not. VENT

He should have brought in Oliver and worried about that today. Omar has options to play with (Soler, Bell), and the DL (Pedro). The game's not till tonight, they could have gotten someone up here.

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Free us from Jerry.

I don't disagree; I was just wondering what his option woulda been. I still don't believe leaving Soler in is what cost them that game.

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"I’ve got to tell you, you can say a lot of things about the 2010 New York Mets, but you don’t ever say we don’t play hard. I mean, look at Angel Pagan’s uniform and Jose Reyes after a 13–inning heartbreaker last night, coming off a 2–9 road trip. We don’t give up, and we’re not going to give up… These guys don’t give up and it’s an honor to be on the team.”--RA Dickey

Considering you could DL Pedro retroactively to last week, he will already miss Today's start, and the break is coming up, it seems like a no brainer to DL him.

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Last year is over, this year is not. VENT

Here's what I have a problem with.

I think Soler is awful. How do you send Milledge back down to the minors for more seasoning but you leave this guy up here, and not only did Willie leave other pitchers in when they are getting bombed, they leave Soler in who blew a 4 run lead by letting him give up 7 runs.

I mean what the fuck is the thought process around here? If you start thinking that we have an 11 game lead so we can afford to do stupid shit like this, it won't be long before the lead is cut right in half.

I am starting to worry because I think we should be sticking with the same lineup, and stop with the Woodward, Franco, and Marerro stuff. Granted they haven't hurt us that much, but I want to know that we're sending out our best every game.

I hope we don't sit still come the trading deadline. We have Glavine, and he's pretty much all I have confidence in right now and that's pretty bad considering he's 40 years old.
I just read something in the Post that blew me away. Because Pedro is hurt they are 'considering' calling up Mayne, Pelfrey, or LIMA??
Lima?? Are you fucking kidding me or what??

Either bring up Pelfrey, and trade for Willis because we have zero pitching right now. We might make it out of our league and into the WS, but we will get blown away if we keep things the way they are.

I agree.

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Free us from Jerry.

I concur as well.

Unfortunately, Willie doesn't seem to see it that way.

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"I’ve got to tell you, you can say a lot of things about the 2010 New York Mets, but you don’t ever say we don’t play hard. I mean, look at Angel Pagan’s uniform and Jose Reyes after a 13–inning heartbreaker last night, coming off a 2–9 road trip. We don’t give up, and we’re not going to give up… These guys don’t give up and it’s an honor to be on the team.”--RA Dickey

1. Oliver is needed to pitch tonight and, possibly, later this week because of Petey's injury. Bringing him in last night would have been a waste.

2. The Yankees needed this game more than we did. We are pretty much a lock for the playoffs, and Willie needs to see who has the intestinal fortitude to get us there. For the Nose-Picker and his crew, this game was big. If they lost, they'd be 5 game out in the division, and 7 out for the WC. But by winning, they kept pace with the Red Sox and picked up a game on the White Sox.

All in all, I applaud Willie by looking at the big picture (the NL and the NL East) instead of focusing on a team that does not play in our division or our league. Yes, it would have been nice to beat the Yankees, but I'm not going to cry because we lost this game. It's ridiculous and VERY short-sighted. Why manage this game as if it were Game 7 of the WS? It wasn't Game 7 of the WS. We still have to play 8 more games (all against NL opponents) before the All-Star break. Why sacrifice any of those games for just one?

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-Julie


I'm back...for now...

just to play Devil's advocate:

Who's to say that Oliver doesn't shut the Yankees down (as he has in numerous other early outings) and the Mets still scored their 7 runs to win that game. If they were to then, say, call up Maine and he loses tonight, they come out of the 2 games 1-1, with a chance at 2-0.

Now the best they can hope for after tonight is 1-1, with a shot at 0-2.

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"I’ve got to tell you, you can say a lot of things about the 2010 New York Mets, but you don’t ever say we don’t play hard. I mean, look at Angel Pagan’s uniform and Jose Reyes after a 13–inning heartbreaker last night, coming off a 2–9 road trip. We don’t give up, and we’re not going to give up… These guys don’t give up and it’s an honor to be on the team.”--RA Dickey

I think you manage each game to win. Worrying about the next game or a game later in the week or getting away from the things that got you into first place is what worries me. We had a lead, it doesn't matter if it's the Yankees or the Royals to me, win the damn game. Put the game in the W column and then worry about the next game. Don't sacrifice the game for a "might be" in the future. For all we know, we could sweep or the Pirates and Marlins could beat the crap out of the Mets this week. What I do know is that we were winning and Soler was afraid to pitch. Make the change.

Willie has been bailed out a bunch of times by the players for his "odd" decision making. It will catch up to him.

I think this is mostly a product of a) being in the AL parks and 2) Delgado's injury. Carlos seems fine now, and being back at Shea, I think we'll see a fairly stable lineup until Saturday.

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Throwing people out of a game is like riding a bike. Once you get the hang of it, it can be a lot of fun.

No way it would have been a waste if the Mets had won. Willie shouldn't be managing tomorrow's game today. Just look at what Torre did. He pulled Wright before it got really ugly. Villone deserves a save for getting David Wright to pop up to 2nd with bases juiced.

True the Yanks needed it more than the Mets. But that still doesn't mean that the Mets didn't need the win (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth). The Mets need to get back on track ASAP. They were just embarrassed in 2 of the 3 Red Sox games where they looked like minor leagues in those games. Then they were 1 hit by the Yanks on Friday. I see a team struggling who needs to put together a win streak to get their moral back up. I think LoDuca would agree.

The big picture is fine. But as a manager, I would manage every single game as an important game. Willie showed that he did not care last night. It would have been great to win the season series against the cross time rivals and worry about Pittsburgh on the day of the game. The team would be on a high, not the current low.

As for Phil's example of Devil's advocate, I, personally would rather be 1-0 wondering if we'll go 1-1 or 2-0 than 0-1 wondering if we'll go 1-1 or 0-2.

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LET'S GO METS!!!

Villone got the win.

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"I’ve got to tell you, you can say a lot of things about the 2010 New York Mets, but you don’t ever say we don’t play hard. I mean, look at Angel Pagan’s uniform and Jose Reyes after a 13–inning heartbreaker last night, coming off a 2–9 road trip. We don’t give up, and we’re not going to give up… These guys don’t give up and it’s an honor to be on the team.”--RA Dickey

The only rationalization I could think of with Willie Randolph's mindset was that he wanted to test Soler. Put him out in Yankee Stadium in a rubber match against your biggest rivals in the biggest stage (national t.v. on Sunday night) and see if he has the chutzpah to work out of his jams. And if he fails, then it would be a message to ownership and Minaya to look at the trade market for a starter.

But the between-inning interview he did with Jon Miller and Joe Morgan negated that possibilty. Obviously, he wouldn't go so far as to say we need to make a trade, but just as a test for Soler. But, all he said was that it happened so fast. Well then, why Willie was I screaming at the television for ten minutes to take Soler out NOW!? I couldn't have been less impressed with him than at that interview.

Everything Joe Morgan said last night during the game about Randolph and the Soler situation was right on. He talked for a while about it, but it was something that warranted it. He didn't belabor it one bit, because it was very important.

This is a red flag.

The one thing, though, is that if this were the playoffs, I would think Willie would be much more concerned with the moment than last night; although, there is a little bit of a Grady Little factor that I'd be nervous about, that no matter what the situation, it's foolish to think that he'll ever be in the right place mentally when that moment arrives. But, what worries me with him is if the Mets are in a tight playoff race in September with games still left. He is a young manager, so maybe he'll learn, and maybe he's still open to advice and constructive criticism from other coaches and managers.

I don't buy the mentality of being up 11 games in our division and playing for tommorrow. No. These past two series were Exhibit A and Exhibit B of measuring our fortitude in clutch situations. You cannot coast through them or refuse to acknowledge the importance of playing against teams that as good or better than you (when in the NL, they'll never face quality teams like Boston or the Yankees the rest of the year). That will not work in baseball. I got the sense that Randolph saw we were losing the Red Sox and Yankees series, and instead of embracing the seriousness of the series' and never backing down and do what it takes to take just one game from them; that it was more like, well it doesn't matter anyway.

We don't want to just replace the Atlanta Braves as the team that overpowers its way into the playoffs, standings-wise; then disappears once they begin. Having this attitude in big series, possibly the only real tests to face before October, can have a snowball effect.

Unacceptable.

Yeah, that did not happen fast. That may have been one of the longest and most punishing innings of the season.

I hate Morgan & Miller, but they were right last night when they discussed the non-move by Willie.



I agree! Someone tell me what is wrong with trying to win every game. I don't see today's game as a good excuse. Let's say that Oliver was untouchable (and we still don't know if that was the case since he was seen warming in the pen later in the game last night)....then why not bring in someone else? Who? How about anyone that could throw a strike? Bradford would have been a good choice against A-Rod with the bases juiced.

The Mets should aim to beat the best. I'd rather have a taxed pen against Pitt today than what happened in last night's game.

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LET'S GO METS!!!

Turns out Oliver isn't even starting tonight.

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Last year is over, this year is not. VENT

WOW! Just WOW! Makes me even more confused of Willie's performance last night. The Yanks must release a poisonous gas into the visitor's dugout which causes the manager to lose all ability to understand what is going on out on the field. This worked with Grady Little, too.

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LET'S GO METS!!!

Maine. Yuck.

hopefully, he can beat the lowly pirates. But this pitching staff is in big trouble.

Well, KWTYH did manage two wins for his beloved Yankees.

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I Like Ike!

Willie Randolph "I wanted to save Oliver as a back up for Maine tomorrow (against the Pirates)."
Sorry but that makes NO SENSE!

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Last year is over, this year is not. VENT

If we can't beat the Bucs tonite and tomorrow, then we can worry. Willie's a good manager and I think he'll just get better. Maybe he learned a few thigns from Billy Martin

Hopefully about baseball and not about life.

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Last year is over, this year is not. VENT

especially given these quotes in today's News:

So which is it guys? Did he know or didn't he?

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"I’ve got to tell you, you can say a lot of things about the 2010 New York Mets, but you don’t ever say we don’t play hard. I mean, look at Angel Pagan’s uniform and Jose Reyes after a 13–inning heartbreaker last night, coming off a 2–9 road trip. We don’t give up, and we’re not going to give up… These guys don’t give up and it’s an honor to be on the team.”--RA Dickey

and why not give Pelfry a shot to spot-start in the big leagues with Pedro hurt? Why bring Maine back up when a game against the Pirates might be a nice debut for a kid we'll be counting on down the road? Seems to me that DL'ing Pedro and calling up Pelfry for a start or two would have been a nice move for the Mets

Bobby Valentine says...........
It's HOW you win the 54 ...............
and LOSE the 54 that ......
DETERMINES the other 54

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Turtle Contracting Corp. "Who knows shells better?"

Pelfrey threw 7 innings Saturday; he couldn;t pitch last night. I still think there's an excellent chance we'll be seeing him on Saturday though.

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"I’ve got to tell you, you can say a lot of things about the 2010 New York Mets, but you don’t ever say we don’t play hard. I mean, look at Angel Pagan’s uniform and Jose Reyes after a 13–inning heartbreaker last night, coming off a 2–9 road trip. We don’t give up, and we’re not going to give up… These guys don’t give up and it’s an honor to be on the team.”--RA Dickey

I wasn't following his minor league pitching days - so that clears that up - thanks Phil.

I hope we do see him soon, as I would rather see him given a chance to spot-start than see another big-league re-tred flounder

Who makes that call? Omar or King Willie?

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I Like Ike!

Good job by Willie last night. I didn't see the whole game, but I checked the play-by-play. I liked the way he did some situational match-ups later in the game, even if the Mets had a decent lead.

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LET'S GO METS!!!

OK, Willie has been doing pretty good lately. But last night I was very surprised that he brought Heath Bell into the game in a pressure situation with runners on base. Before I really get on him for it, I'd like to ask anyone if the know a website where I can look up "inherited runners vs. inherited runners scored." Anyone?

Of course, Heath isn't the major factor in the Mets loss last night. Obviously, it was Trax. But I still question this move.

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LET'S GO METS!!!